Evgeny Gaevoy, founder and CEO of Wintermute, joins J.D. Durkin at the New York Stock Exchange to discuss Bitcoin’s sharp pullback from record highs, how ETF flows and traditional exchanges are reshaping crypto liquidity, and why this cycle may look very different from the past.
Get the latest news and updates on FINTECH.TV
J.D.: Our next guest joins us right here at the FINTECH.TV booth. This is Evgeny Gaevoy, the founder and CEO at Wintermute. Thanks a lot for joining us.
Evgeny: Thanks for having me.
J.D.: And not only making your Taking Stock debut, but visiting us here at the New York Stock Exchange for the first time. It's awesome to have you.
Evgeny: Yeah, no, I always wanted to visit.
J.D.: So. Okay. You're you are much smarter here. I love talking with guests who are objectively far smarter than I am, especially on all things cryptocurrency. So, you know, we've been tracking Bitcoin coming off those 125, 126 levels in October. Obviously the big liquidation event on and around October 10th. How are you approaching its current pricing levels at 66 and change?
Evgeny: I mean it's definitely an interesting change.Market. Market dynamic wise. Uh, what we basically see on liquidity side is it's very much it's a big structural change. It's driven a lot by ETF flows. It's driven a lot by basically what we call TradFi exchanges. Well basically Nike Nasdaq. So basically everything that happens in the ETF space affects, not affects crypto away more than just traditionally on like big centralized exchanges like Binance or Coinbase.
J.D.: Yeah. Why did this cycle break the usual seasonal patterns? And to a degree, how have you been able to look at it the last few months?
Evgeny: Yeah, I mean, I've never was a believer in the cycle. Like basically it was like two, four year cycles that people like to believe in. Um, I think what's interesting about this particular move is we know the technology works, but it's very much decoupled from, uh, token prices. we see a lot of innovation in tokenized securities. We see obviously stablecoins picking up and going full steam ahead, but we don't see it being reflected in token prices, which is very different from all previous cycles.
J.D.: How big of an impact to further drive down the price on some of these things has been the conversation over liquidation and deleveraging, which as we talked about with other guests, it's all well and good when these asset prices are riding up. But man oh man, once it starts to come down No one wants to catch that falling knife.
Evgeny: I mean, it's good and bad, right? I think a lot of this pain has been front loaded already, so I think it starts to be a lot more interesting. Like the crypto prices start to be a lot more interesting compared when Bitcoin was at 128. Like now there's a risk reward is starting to be here.
J.D: Do you have any sense on where crypto goes from here? I know that's like the most important question in the crypto markets these days, but people are looking for a good faith entry point. They thought maybe we flush some of the leverage out of the system. Okay, we go to 75. Now we go to 70. Now we're going a little lower to 65,66. You have a sense on on where this thing goes?
Evgeny: I would say not yet. Like what? What I can share is basically via OTC desk is we see a lot more basically two sided flow recently, which is opposed to basically only selling a week or two week ago like a month ago. So it starts to be a bit more balanced, which gives a bit more hope for like reversal. But it's still too early to say.
J.D.: What do you say to the average investor who is watching the crypto majors fall and saying, wait a minute, I thought this was the time for institutional adoption. I thought this was the time for members on Capitol Hill to pass much needed legislation. Why is this happening? At the same time as those things are?
Evgeny: I guess time will tell as well. But I mean, first of all, we haven't seen this legislation passed yet, so I think that's a pretty big catalyst potentially to come and help the prices. Secondly, crypto needs to do some soul searching. Crypto needs to dig deeper and understand, okay, where does the value capture is coming from? Is it other tokens going to be solution is tokenized equity is going to be a solution. And maybe a lot of tokens don't deserve to be here in the first place.
J.D.: Evgeny Gaevoy, founder and CEO at Wintermute. I know you're leaving New York in the not too distant future, so thanks a lot for taking some time to see us down here at the show and making your first trip to the New York Stock Exchange. Come back anytime. It's great to have you.
Evgeny: Sounds great.